Cheap Ignition

I am wanting to find a simpler way to mount the 466 in the Galaxie, and have room for headers. I am always working on something. I have my 352 with points (without the condensor)running a TFI ignition module and coil using the advance in the distributor. A lot of people said it wouldn't work, but it does. IT is an idea i got from a motot\rcycle website and just adapted it to my 352 in the galaxie. Its got 10°/38°/50° with the vacuum advance, and the poinys are providing the "Spout" signal.





I hope the pictures work. Its cool because it starts with a flick of the key, and has 40,000 volts available. This 352 is worn out, blowby really bad, but runs like some kind of freak. I have it all running off of relays, along with a Blue Holley electric fuel pump and regulatorand a 15 Gal sumped fuel cell with -8 line running the length of the car. Its ready for a 466 now. I can't wait!

That's really cool Bill!!

Can that be made to work with the Dura Spark pick-up? Or is there no advantage?

Bill

billandlori wrote:That's really cool Bill!!

Can that be made to work with the Dura Spark pick-up? Or is there no advantage?

Bill

No, the Duraspark has a magnetic pickup. The points make a digital square wave just like the optical sensor in a modern distributor. The advance works because the points dizzy has an advance mechanism built in that takes the place of the "Spout" signal from the computer.

The Duraspark has a different waveform that is incompatible with the TFI. The Duraspark is just as good though. I have both and they are fine performers. I adapted a Duraspark to my '65 F250 4X4 and it has been trouble free for going on 10 years from used Ford stuff off of a '77 400 F150 4X4. I just gutted the distributor and put the guts in an FE distributor, cut a notch for the strain relief. Ford made some good ignition stuff.

Plus I got the parts to make each onework from vehicles headed for the crusher. The TFI came off a wrecked 6 cylinder '95 F150, and I built my own loom. It is important that the condensor be removed from the points distributor, but thats about it.

Hot Rodders were the first recyclers.

Yeah, I forgot about the sine vs square wave output.

Bill

BillBallinger wrote:

billandlori wrote:

No, the Duraspark has a magnetic pickup. The points make a digital square wave just like the optical sensor in a modern distributor. The advance works because the points dizzy has an advance mechanism built in that takes the place of the "Spout" signal from the computer.

The Duraspark has a different waveform that is incompatible with the TFI. The Duraspark is just as good though.

I use a 4 pin HEI module with my Duraspark dizzies as a cheap solution to trigger the coil. I will never buy a Ford Duraspark box again now that I know that trick.

Unlike a Duraspark box which requires a resistor 12 volt wire from the power source, a GM HEI module can run off of straight 12 volts. I buy my HEI modules for 15 bucks and have used them for years without a failure. I mount them on the fenderwells beside the coil with the special grease that comes with it and it runs cool.

I also rig up our race cars with those modules as back up ignition sources.

83-88T-Bird Guy wrote:

BillBallinger wrote:

billandlori wrote:

No, the Duraspark has a magnetic pickup. The points make a digital square wave just like the optical sensor in a modern distributor. The advance works because the points dizzy has an advance mechanism built in that takes the place of the "Spout" signal from the computer.

The Duraspark has a different waveform that is incompatible with the TFI. The Duraspark is just as good though.

I use a 4 pin HEI module with my Duraspark dizzies as a cheap solution to trigger the coil. I will never buy a Ford Duraspark box again now that I know that trick.

Unlike a Duraspark box which requires a resistor 12 volt wire from the power source, a GM HEI module can run off of straight 12 volts. I buy my HEI modules for 15 bucks and have used them for years without a failure. I mount them on the fenderwells beside the coil with the special grease that comes with it and it runs cool.

I also rig up our race cars with those modules as back up ignition sources.

Got a pic of this set up and wiring digagram. I have both dis. and like to try both of these set ups.

Keith

For the money spent, I'd simply use a Pertronix II in a points distributor; unless you already have the parts just laying around.
Using the HEI module with a magnetic distributor has been used in one form or another for years. It's a good running ignition.

BillBallinger wrote:I am wanting to find a simpler way to mount the 466 in the Galaxie, and have room for headers. I am always working on something. I have my 352 with points (without the condensor)running a TFI ignition module and coil using the advance in the distributor. A lot of people said it wouldn't work, but it does. IT is an idea i got from a motot\rcycle website and just adapted it to my 352 in the galaxie. Its got 10°/38°/50° with the vacuum advance, and the poinys are providing the "Spout" signal.





I hope the pictures work. Its cool because it starts with a flick of the key, and has 40,000 volts available. This 352 is worn out, blowby really bad, but runs like some kind of freak. I have it all running off of relays, along with a Blue Holley electric fuel pump and regulatorand a 15 Gal sumped fuel cell with -8 line running the length of the car. Its ready for a 466 now. I can't wait!

You show the points going to ground as normal so, what does go to the positive side of the coil if that is correct...? (switched, battery, how many amps...?)

below is a good link with good info and illistrations

http://www.bronco.com/cms/node/25

I have done a LOT of "street type" ignition dyno testing with magnetic impulse distributors using Engine Masters engines. An HEI INDUCTIVE ignition will make better average power to about 4,500 to 5,000 RPM, then a Capacitive Discharge type ignition will take over.
Several different ignitions along with different coils have been tested throughout the last few years.
UNTIL the ICE ignition from Australia became available, the best performing INDUCTIVE ignition was an MSD HEI 20 amp module, (which just became canceled by them due to low sales volume); their 7.5 amp module is still available but, not near as powerful.
MSD also used to have a "Stacker" Capacitive Discharge ignition which worked as an ADDITION to an INDUCTIVE ignition which provided its trigger signal. MSD has also canceled that Stacker because of low sales reasons. (Pertroniz offers their version and calls it "Second Strike").

Getting a coil to work WELL in the desired RPM range with both a Capacitive Discharge ignition AND an Inductive ignition at the same time is paramount. Several, from all different manufacturers, do work well but, in slightly different RPM ranges.

My EMC entries have had these Hybrid ignition systems on them for the last 5 years, (there's a close-up photo of this complete ignition in a recent "Engine Masters" magazine). Although the drawback is that they are not timing programible, a creative distributor can vary the advance slightly in the desired ranges.

a little off topic.....

where do you recommend getting bushings to rebuild your duraspark housings ??????????

rmcomprandy wrote:

BillBallinger wrote:I am wanting to find a simpler way to mount the 466 in the Galaxie, and have room for headers. I am always working on something. I have my 352 with points (without the condensor)running a TFI ignition module and coil using the advance in the distributor. A lot of people said it wouldn't work, but it does. IT is an idea i got from a motot\rcycle website and just adapted it to my 352 in the galaxie. Its got 10°/38°/50° with the vacuum advance, and the poinys are providing the "Spout" signal.





I hope the pictures work. Its cool because it starts with a flick of the key, and has 40,000 volts available. This 352 is worn out, blowby really bad, but runs like some kind of freak. I have it all running off of relays, along with a Blue Holley electric fuel pump and regulatorand a 15 Gal sumped fuel cell with -8 line running the length of the car. Its ready for a 466 now. I can't wait!

You show the points going to ground as normal so, what does go to the positive side of the coil if that is correct...? (switched, battery, how many amps...?)

You use a 12V switched source to connect the "Pip" and "Run" to the module plug, and the "Switched Source" mine controlled by a fused relay branches to the + coil. If the fuse blows or the relay quits, there's no fire to anything. Its mounted under the dash and I have a spare module, points, fuse, and relay in the glovebox. all used stuff. The blue wire to the - coil is told when to fire the coil by the "Spout" which is the just the points providing the momentary ground signal to the module.

jc10000rpm wrote:below is a good link with good info and illistrations

http://www.bronco.com/cms/node/25

There was a guy told a story once about haviong a Jaguar come in with a no-start condition that was traced to the module. It was a sine wave magnetic system like a Duraspark. The module from the mother ship was $700. The mechanic carefully took the box apart and inside was an AC DELCO HEI module. He bought another one, put it in and weather packed the box carefully back together. It ran like a charm.

You can do the same thing with a Duraspark box, put an HEI module in it. The box makes and excellent weather pack and heat sink. Plus it looks original. If my box goes out on my truck, that's what I plan to do, plus upgrade to a TFI coil since it can run off of battery voltage.

jc10000rpm wrote:a little off topic.....

where do you recommend getting bushings to rebuild your duraspark housings ??????????

Don't know, wish I could help.

rmcomprandy wrote:For the money spent, I'd simply use a Pertronix II in a points distributor; unless you already have the parts just laying around.
Using the HEI module with a magnetic distributor has been used in one form or another for years. It's a good running ignition.

The module being remotely mounted runs alot cooler. The pertronix all in one in the cap is getting pretty hot. People swear by them though. I like the idea of points being the sacrificial lamb that gets hot. Plus the points don't care what the dwell is, that in the module, so wear doesn't really matter. They don't arc because theres micovolts running to them without a condensor. The distributor could be worn out and it doesn't matter.

Thats my preference, but theres room for everyone. All of my stuff was used "junk", so none of it cost me anything. and I keep free "junk" to replace it if it goes bad. I have a whole drawer full of it. If you were buying it all new, it could cost about the same, but the module properly mounter with air circulation will last a long time. My bro-in-law's,96 F150 with 5.8 still has the original module and coil. Thats going on 15 years, and it is still strong on the scope.

Ouote rmcomprandy- You show the points going to ground as normal so, what does go to the positive side of the coil if that is correct...? (switched, battery, how many amps...?) Quoted...

I am running a DPDT 30Amp relay and I am running both my fuel pump and ignition off of it. It has two "87" posts so both run off of. the ignition switch hooked to the "85" and the "86" is grounded. The pump uses a 10 amp inline blade fuse on one "87", and the ignition uses a 20 amp inline blade fuse on the other. It actually only draws a little less than 10 amps, and the pump just over 5. So it works pretty well. I have a 30 amp fuse between the ingnitin switch and the relay "85".

I look at it as a poor boys Pertronix thats spread out enough to keep heat from being a factor. Something else I had to do was put late model voltage regulator on it to keep it from feeding field voltage back to the switch. It wouldn't shut off with the key unless you had the ALT bulb out. I put the new transistorized regulator that has a zener diode in the indicator circuit on and the problem was solved.

The principle isn't alot different than the pertronix, but the module being remotely mounted in a good air stream would seem like an advantage. The TFI coil has a good wind ratio, so it doesn't draw alot of amperage for the output. Powerbraking it in drive, the highest draw I could get out of the whole system was 10.1. I am sure punching through 12:1 with a .050 plug gap might raise it a little. We'll see.

Anyway, if its of any value to anyone, give it a shot, and if you have any questions throw them on out. LIke I said I didn't come up with it on my own, I borrowed it from a motorcycle site. I just made it work on a car despite alot of scepticism among alot of my other friends.

I like reusing old junk, its my way of being "environmentally responsible", while i listen to the hypocrites in DC bleat about crushing year old cars.

I think it's great to be able to adapt all kinds of production stuff to work well. I have a bunch of that kind of stuff from "Take-Offs" which is just sitting around and simply knowing about these kinda things intrigues me.
Do you have information on how to use a complete TFI V8 distributor with its locked timing and "Hall" trigger in it and that kind of plug-in module, which will work seperately with just a coil and the power goin" to whatever right places...?
I've got plenty of those, lol.

rmcomprandy wrote:I think it's great to be able to adapt all kinds of production stuff to work well. I have a bunch of that kind of stuff from "Take-Offs" which is just sitting around and simply knowing about these kinda things intrigues me.
Do you have information on how to use a complete TFI V8 distributor with its locked timing and "Hall" trigger in it and that kind of plug-in module, which will work seperately with just a coil and the power goin" to whatever right places...?
I've got plenty of those, lol.

If you could run locked timing it would be pretty straight forward. You know how when you unhook the set timing connector when you are setting the timing? The computer is setting the "spout" to the same value as the "pip" with the set timing connector unhooked. If you wired your own loom the same as with the points one except you included the "spout" with the "pip", "run" and keyed source, it would be like locking the a regular distributor out to whatever you set it to physically. You could set it to say 34°-36° with your light and it would have that all the time. When you are making your loom you would just run the "spout" wire in with the other two, the "pip" and "run" to a keyed source and branch off to the + side of the coil. You would then have 34°-36° (or whatever you set it at) of locked out timing. If you had trouble cranking you could wire a toggle in that kills the ignition, but allows the starter to crank as normal, and then hit the ignition once you have it spinning. It wouldn't have any advance, just what you set the dizzy to.

You got me to thinking of doing this on my 466, put a TFI dist in, and the works, gray TFI IV module TFI coil etc, set the distributor at say 34°-36°, and use a kill toggle switch for starting, then crank it and turn the ignition on when its got oil pressure and is ready to light. The "pip" kicks out at 200 rpms and the "spout" takes over, so thats why you would want pin #5 "spout" wired in.

There's no advance without the computer, but you could use it in any race car where you lock the tioming anyway.

how about "points bounce", does the electronics built in to the module see to it that there is no erratic behaviour at higher rpm's

iv had great luck out of "blue streak" points and condenser units up to 6500rpm on fords in the past with tight dist. shaft bushings

GREAT THREAD GUYS

jc10000rpm wrote:how about "points bounce", does the electronics built in to the module see to it that there is no erratic behaviour at higher rpm's

iv had great luck out of "blue streak" points and condenser units up to 6500rpm on fords in the past with tight dist. shaft bushings

You can deal with points bounce in two ways. Since the point gap doesn't affect the dwell, you can close the points gap up. You could go to say .010. This would lessen the chance of bounce. You can also take the points and a fishing scale and set the tension to open the points tighter. I did both myself. The limitation to tightening the tension is rubbing block wear, so a combination is best. I put two extra ounces of tension on the points and closed them up to .012. Now the old worn out 352 thats in there probably wouldn't live at an rpm to test it, but I am pretty confident this will take you to 7500 pretty easily. The combination of the the leverage and gap is pretty strong. I don't believe it will wear the rubbing block off, and .012 gap is pretty quick, not much time or distance to bounce. I'll let you know if iI can get it in something I can wind that high. It has been up to 6200 holding in 2nd gear,(poor old thing) and its steady as a rock. Those points are 100 years old too. Its a wonder we didn't blow it up, but it made my son a believer, before it would act up a little about 5400. Thats gone and it acts like it wants to keep on wailing. I can't kill that poor old thing that way.

BillBallinger wrote:

rmcomprandy wrote:I think it's great to be able to adapt all kinds of production stuff to work well. I have a bunch of that kind of stuff from "Take-Offs" which is just sitting around and simply knowing about these kinda things intrigues me.
Do you have information on how to use a complete TFI V8 distributor with its locked timing and "Hall" trigger in it and that kind of plug-in module, which will work seperately with just a coil and the power goin" to whatever right places...?
I've got plenty of those, lol.

If you could run locked timing it would be pretty straight forward. You know how when you unhook the set timing connector when you are setting the timing? The computer is setting the "spout" to the same value as the "pip" with the set timing connector unhooked. If you wired your own loom the same as with the points one except you included the "spout" with the "pip", "run" and keyed source, it would be like locking the a regular distributor out to whatever you set it to physically. You could set it to say 34°-36° with your light and it would have that all the time. When you are making your loom you would just run the "spout" wire in with the other two, the "pip" and "run" to a keyed source and branch off to the + side of the coil. You would then have 34°-36° (or whatever you set it at) of locked out timing. If you had trouble cranking you could wire a toggle in that kills the ignition, but allows the starter to crank as normal, and then hit the ignition once you have it spinning. It wouldn't have any advance, just what you set the dizzy to.

You got me to thinking of doing this on my 466, put a TFI dist in, and the works, gray TFI IV module TFI coil etc, set the distributor at say 34°-36°, and use a kill toggle switch for starting, then crank it and turn the ignition on when its got oil pressure and is ready to light. The "pip" kicks out at 200 rpms and the "spout" takes over, so thats why you would want pin #5 "spout" wired in.

There's no advance without the computer, but you could use it in any race car where you lock the tioming anyway.

Could you make a quick schematic of this as I'm pretty bad at following text...

Good stuff!!!

What would you guys recommend for this setup? The motor is a mercsuiser 3.7 that uses the 460 head. It has a chevy II distributor with points. I want to convert it to electronic ignition and have a rev limitor too.