472 P51 build

Need some build advice,

    I’m beginning my 472” build topped with P51 heads. I set out on this project looking to replicate the 466” Kaase built when the P51 heads first came out, just with a few slight differences. One being it’s going to be a 472”. The other is that it’s going to be an E85 street/strip engine, and not a test mule. I’m wondering about the camshaft side of things. Being an E85 engine, would a cam be specked out any differently for e85 vs 93?

This is what I have planned for the build so far:

D9 block
Stock crank
Eagle H-beams
Kaase/Diamond p51 pistons, shooting for 12.5:1 compression
Cam & Valvetrain...open to suggestions
P51 heads
Mark Sullens carb

Backed with a top loader, 50/50 street strip, going into a 70’ Torino.

Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance

TTrotter wrote:Need some build advice,

    I’m beginning my 472” build topped with P51 heads. I set out on this project looking to replicate the 466” Kaase built when the P51 heads first came out, just with a few slight differences. One being it’s going to be a 472”. The other is that it’s going to be an E85 street/strip engine, and not a test mule. I’m wondering about the camshaft side of things. Being an E85 engine, would a cam be specked out any differently for e85 vs 93?

This is what I have planned for the build so far:

D9 block
Stock crank
Eagle H-beams
Kaase/Diamond p51 pistons, shooting for 12.5:1 compression
Cam & Valvetrain...open to suggestions
P51 heads
Mark Sullens carb

Backed with a top loader, 50/50 street strip, going into a 70’ Torino.

Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance

Closed exhaust or open ...?

Closed exhaust or open ...?[/quote]

Long tubes into a 3” x pipe with magnaflow dumped in front of the rear axle

TTrotter wrote:

Long tubes into a 3” x pipe with magnaflow dumped in front of the rear axle

About 260/270 @.050" with about .720" valve lift.

what would the effective rpm range be on a cam like that?

Anyone have a suggestion for a machine shop that is good with 460’s in the Denver area?

TTrotter wrote:Closed exhaust or open ...?

Long tubes into a 3” x pipe with magnaflow dumped in front of the rear axle[/quote]

Exhaust gasses are very corrosive and to dump in front of the rear axle does not bode well for the rear of the car. Not to mention all the heat directed at the gas tank.

DanE wrote:

TTrotter wrote:Closed exhaust or open ...?

Long tubes into a 3” x pipe with magnaflow dumped in front of the rear axle

Exhaust gasses are very corrosive and to dump in front of the rear axle does not bode well for the rear of the car. Not to mention all the heat directed at the gas tank.[/quote]

That thought hadn’t occurred to me to be honest. Sounds like it’s worth continuing the exhaust out the back with mandrel bent 3” pipe.

be careful with that E85, that stuff does not play nice with carburetors, let some sit in my mark sullens carb for a month. totally f'd it up. aluminum oxide everywhere. I let the car sit and idle till it ran out of fuel. that that was it. nope. I don't know what Mark does to the metering blocks with the idle circuits but it still had about 3/8 of an inch of fuel in it. damn near destroyed mar carb. I tore it apart. cleaned it up the best I could, still isn't right. carb ran great before. idle and wot are the same, but the transision in normal driving sucks now. mine was a converted holley 950 h/p. I think the only way to make a carb live with E85 is everything needs to be anodized and brass or stainless. it even etched the fuel bowl bolts. I run a Brad Penn fuel additive now and make damn sure all the fuel is out.

torino501 wrote:be careful with that E85, that stuff does not play nice with carburetors, let some sit in my mark sullens carb for a month. totally f'd it up. aluminum oxide everywhere. I let the car sit and idle till it ran out of fuel. that that was it. nope. I don't know what Mark does to the metering blocks with the idle circuits but it still had about 3/8 of an inch of fuel in it. damn near destroyed mar carb. I tore it apart. cleaned it up the best I could, still isn't right. carb ran great before. idle and wot are the same, but the transision in normal driving sucks now. mine was a converted holley 950 h/p. I think the only way to make a carb live with E85 is everything needs to be anodized and brass or stainless. it even etched the fuel bowl bolts. I run a Brad Penn fuel additive now and make damn sure all the fuel is out.

I know the climate has a lot to do with how the fuel acts when it’s sitting for a while. The stuff loves to absorb moisture out of the air. Not sure if I would really have that particular issue here in Colorado with the arid climate. I dont have the inside story of how Mark Sullens builds his carbs, but I gotta say this is the first time I’ve heard anything remotely negative about his products. He does recommend some specific procedures for storage longer than a week. It’ll be a long period of figuring out exactly what this stuff likes and doesn’t like, as well as learning from mistakes made.

Edit: it makes a ton of sense to anodize the internals of the carb in an E85 application

Oh I’m not saying anything negative about his carbs or conversion. He’s carb performed better than expected. I didn’t realize how fast E85 would pull Galveston into the carb bowls. It really opened my eyes to the stuff. I’m not so sure I’d do it again on a rarely driven hot rod. Daily driver? You bet. Port fuel injection? Hell yes.GT500/5.0L coyote? Absolutely. Rarely driven hot rod? Probably never again. A fully anodized and all the bells a whistles carb? $$$$$

torino501 wrote:Oh I’m not saying anything negative about his carbs or conversion. He’s carb performed better than expected. I didn’t realize how fast E85 would pull Galveston into the carb bowls. It really opened my eyes to the stuff. I’m not so sure I’d do it again on a rarely driven hot rod. Daily driver? You bet. Port fuel injection? Hell yes.GT500/5.0L coyote? Absolutely. Rarely driven hot rod? Probably never again. A fully anodized and all the bells a whistles carb? $$$$$

There will definitely be a learning curve involved with it. I think as long as it gets run once a week and let it get up to temp for a bit it should be okay. If it sits longer than that, I’ll have to remember capping off the gas tank vent, and putting a carb hat on it to keep the fuel system isolated.

rmcomprandy wrote:

TTrotter wrote:

Long tubes into a 3” x pipe with magnaflow dumped in front of the rear axle

About 260/270 @.050" with about .720" valve lift.

Talked with Cam Research here in Denver last week, ran the build specs by him and he came pretty close to the same of what you suggested. Only difference was the lift as I wasn’t able to verify what springs are on p51 heads in a solid roller application. They came up with 262/267 @.050, 680/680 with 110LSA. I think there is room to grow but not sure how far as I can’t seem to find what springs are on those heads.

Why not go higher compresdion if your planning na e85 or is boost possibly in your future?

litshoot wrote:Why not go higher compresdion if your planning na e85 or is boost possibly in your future?

No boost in the future...with this short block anyway. I had thought about 13+ but the little voice in the back of my head said 12.5:1 should be good. Not sure if I need that negativity hanging around in my head. Now that I think about it, I can’t come up with a good reason to not go 13:1 or better. Can you or anyone else?

More is better, my E-85 545 will be 14 to one

Mike R wrote:More is better, my E-85 545 will be 14 to one

Perhaps I should look into 13:1 to 14:1 neighborhood? I’d need a domed piston and potentially a thinner head gasket I think